Is Obama retarded?

[salviasofthead]

Merlin, I think you speak with the voice of reason. Compassion is an empty ruse without the logistics or infrastructure to support it.

As you suggest, I don't believe that creating a new "medical refugee" status was the intent of lifting the ban either. I think it was merely adjusting the "infectious disease" status to better reflect scientifically proven fact instead of allowing it to be seen as validating a long-standing knee-jerk fear reaction.

You'd have a lot of intelligent and thoughtful posts to undo before you could share the award. Sorry man.

ssh

[kedabra]

Originally Posted by merlin 21

I would favor allowing immigration by infected individuals on a selective basis for humanitarian concerns; family unification, political refugees or whatever. People will "game the system" of course, but we should try to be compassionate. I don't think we can AFFORD to allow a large influx of HIV/AIDS patients as "medical refugees."

The US doesn't seem like a top destination for medical refugees. Your country doesn't provide health care for its own people. If they pay for healthcare your economy benefits. And why would someone with HIV want to leave their friends and family to go and slowly die in a foreign country?

We don't have any restrictions on HIV+ people entering the UK, and we also have free healthcare for all , but we are not being flooded with "medical refugees". It seems like the kind of law that was there to win votes from bigots rather than protect public health and government funds.

[merlin 21]

Originally Posted by kedabra

The US doesn't seem like a top destination for medical refugees. Your country doesn't provide health care for its own people. If they pay for healthcare your economy benefits. And why would someone with HIV want to leave their friends and family to go and slowly die in a foreign country?

We don't have any restrictions on HIV+ people entering the UK, and we also have free healthcare for all , but we are not being flooded with "medical refugees". It seems like the kind of law that was there to win votes from bigots rather than protect public health and government funds.

Thanks for the kind words you guys. Refering to the above, and just to clarify: It's a total myth that people in the US don't receive medical care. Indigent, welfare, homeless, illegal immigrants are ALL given free emergency medical care (it's illegal to turn them away) and have been for many years in County hospitals and clinics. It's been like that for as long as I can remember. I'm not saying it's as quick, convenient and of the same level of quality as private care, but it is adequate for most people in most (acute) circumstances. As far as non emergency care I've known countless people who have qualified for government medical cards (ie free services) simply because they didn't want to work. Yes, it's true.

There seems to be a lot of bullshit being slung in this argument. All we hear in the US is how "sub standard" the care in Canada/UK is...and you guys have probably grown up hearing that we have poor people dying in the streets. It's all political rhetoric. It's straight up bullshit.

[CactusFlesh]

Originally Posted by kedabra

The US doesn't seem like a top destination for medical refugees. Your country doesn't provide health care for its own people. If they pay for healthcare your economy benefits. And why would someone with HIV want to leave their friends and family to go and slowly die in a foreign country?

.

I have never heard of anybody recieving free health care in the US and I have lived here all my life.

I agree and I will remind people of the staggering amount of $$$ the US wastes everyday. I actually did a few years working for the feds and those stories about a 500 dollar toilet seat are not a lie. We throw away billions and billions and our economy would not even notice it if we were kinder with our health care.

Why not just can a few czars and stop giving money for things like federal grants for a Mob Museum in Las Vegas, Nevada?

[merlin 21]

Originally Posted by CactusFlesh

(snip) I have never heard of anybody recieving free health care in the US and I have lived here all my life.

This is off topic, and it's my fault because I took it there, but literally (I'm guessing) hundreds of thousands of people get free medical care in the US on a daily basis, certainly tens of thousands. In California, anybody can walk into any hospital anywhere and receive emergency care at no charge if they are "medically indigent" (ie can't afford to pay.) That law applies to both legal residents and non legal. The ER's in San Diego are full to overflowing 24/7 with Mexican nationals. There were instances of "patient dumping" in the past where seriously injured patients were refered to County hospitals (which have always been free for the indigent) and died en route. After the law suits stemming from that practice, private hoispitals are afraid to turn any seriously injured person away; as they should be. The costs for this care is picked up by the insured via $50.00 aspirin etc. and by Federal subsidies which require a percentage of cost to be "written off as uncollectable."

In the area of non-emergency care anybody in California (must be U.S. Citizen) who doesn't own property and doesn't work (for any reason including personal choice) or meets "low income criteria" (low wage w/dependents) can obtain a medical card for the asking. This card (called "the key to the kingdom" by medical workers) entitles them to every medical service there is, up to and including cancer surgery, open heart surgery, anything short of sex change/cosmetic surgery. I believe there is a lawsuit in the works to cover sex change surgery under MediCal. Medi Cal reimburses at a rate substantially lower than private insurance, and as a result there are many doctors (about half) who refuse Medi Cal patients. There are many clinics whose patients are all Medi Cal. As a rule they are more crowded, with longer waits than those facilities which do not accept Medi Cal patients. Are MediCal doctors all "veternarians" as some claim? I don't think so as a rule, but there is a lot of fraud in the MediCal program, much of it commited by clinic doctors. The majority of clinic docs are foreign born and have degrees from off shore medical schools.

I believe Medi Cal patients generally receive equal treatment in most large hospitals. That has been my observation. I have had many friends and some family members who have been MediCal recipients. When I visit them in the hospital, I don't see a big "M" on their forehead. They seem to be getting the same treatment as anyone else. No deductable, no co-pay. Flat out free.

Currently, MediCal has dropped dental and mental health coverage due to budget concerns; California is essentially bankrupt. Part of the reason for that are those ER's in San Diego. PART of it, not all of it. California is completely out of control as far as transfer payments. We can't blame the illegals for everything, though they are the most frequent scapegoat. We have cultivated our own native underclass for a few generations now, and they pretty much run the State. That's why we don't enforce the auto insurance law, for instance. 1/2 the drivers in Ca. don't carry insurance...the same half who don't pay income tax.

Those are the facts as I know them.

I'll add my opinion that the people who get flat out FUCKED by the medical system in the US are the "working poor." That would be anyone working for a company who doesn't offer medical insurance and who don't have an income suffecient to purchase their own. "Too much for welfare, not enough for insurance" is how it's usually put. That's a lot of folks. If you own a home they will take it away from you to sastisfy medical bills, although many hospitals will make reasonable payment plans. These debts can be so great, however, that they utterly destroy a persons credit rating for life. While those with MediCal cards will go the doctor anytime they have a headache, working people without insurance will just get up and go to work.

I was one of those people for many years, and worked with broken ribs, severe pnemonia, nail gun injuries. I've been knocked unconscious and gotten right up and gone back to work several times (maybe that explains a few things, right?)... just about anything you can think of. I didn't see a doctor for about 10 years...for ANYTHING. I was buying a home and didn't have medical insurance. Many months I ate rice and beans to make the house payment...I certainly couldn't afford insurance. I watched my wife (a part time MEDICAL worker without insurance at that time!) refuse anesthetic while having her lung ventilated after it collapsed, to keep it off her bill! You could hear the fucking tube puncture her lung from 6 feet away! She bit on a rag. I'm not making this up! That sort of thing was (is) common in construction and many other industries I'm sure. I CHOSE that career, and I would make the same choice again...but I was very lucky too. I waited until I had insurance to get Cancer.

The fear of most Americans concerning Government medical care is that we will ALL be on MediCal. That would be better than NO insurance, but worse than what many of us have through our private insurance.

The biggest impediment to meaningful reform are the lawyers. We now have government by, for and of lawyers. How many of you know that the current healthcare reform bill(s?) contains a provision that States which put a cap on malpractice awards will be denied funding? California did that a few years ago because so many doctors simply quit (or moved) because malpractice insurance was so expensive they couldn't afford to practice here, where awards were into the mega millions.

[TheGoodLocust]

Originally Posted by cochisewolf

You're sort of like a Sarah Palin supporter.

Have your monkey test out some of the vehicles mentioned here: Agaric, Salvia, San Pedro. With luck, a kernel of your true self may emerge and in the process you may shed some of this 1950s the bogey men are taking over America mentality.

Ah, so you, without evidence accuse me of being homophobic, racist and hyper-religious (easily disproven by looking at my other threads btw) and now you seem to be indicating that people who use entheogens are all so "spiritually advanced" that they voted for Barack because he is a "Light Worker," but usually vote Green Party because "Meat is Murder?"

Tell me, when Jim Jones was being covered up for by democratic politicians and the media, was his killing of a thousand Americans merely a right wing conspiracy or was it okay because he claimed to be spiritual and was against segregation?

Uh oh, I brought up that a guy, supported by Harvey Milk and for racial integration, was a monster! I must be racist and homophobic (despite the fact that I'm for gay marriage and would be strung up by the KKK).

Hey asshole, here's a fucking clue - no one political side has a monopoly on morality or compassion - we just show it in different ways. I'm perfectly able, and I really want to, treat people with respect when conversing, but when they start baselessly slandering me then that ticks me off and I will hit back.

Of course, I don't expect, given the fact that you've gotten everything so obviously wrong about me, for you to change your mind - you are too fucking hardheaded and arrogant to man up to your mistakes.

[TheGoodLocust]

Originally Posted by cowfodder

*edit* Hey TheGoodLocust, read Merlin's post and see how it should be done. He manages to say basically everything you have been, without coming off as a homophobic, racist, heartless douchebag.

Hey, give me some constructive pointers - tell me what I said that was racist or homophobic and then I'll be able to refrain from those kinds of statements in the future.

Heartless douchebag? That's a judgement call so feel free to hold that opinion of me. That is far kinder than what I'm beginning to think of a few of you.

[salviasofthead]

Originally Posted by TheGoodLocust

Hey, give me some constructive pointers - tell me what I said that was racist or homophobic and then I'll be able to refrain from those kinds of statements in the future.

Heartless douchebag? That's a judgement call so feel free to hold that opinion of me. That is far kinder than what I'm beginning to think of a few of you.

Ya know, you might want to dip a toe in the water a few times and then wade out a bit before diving in where you don't know the waters. It's pretty hard to undo first impressions.

Just a suggestion.

ssh

[cochisewolf]

Originally Posted by salviasofthead

Ya know, you might want to dip a toe in the water a few times and then wade out a bit before diving in where you don't know the waters. It's pretty hard to undo first impressions.

Just a suggestion.

ssh

Wow. That is so well said. There's nothing I can add to that. I really need to learn this art of expressing in three lines what takes me 28 paragraphs to convey ...

[cochisewolf]

Originally Posted by merlin 21

This is off topic, and it's my fault because I took it there, but literally (I'm guessing) hundreds of thousands of people get free medical care in the US on a daily ...

As usual merlin, a couple of great posts and, as pointed out, conveyed with diplomacy. I could also add with insight, passion, and creativity but I don't want you to get a big head.

I agree with many of the points and disagree with others. (But of course, what a boring forum this would be if everybody agreed on everything). I got a fewe views on health care, most of them anecdotal. Like you I've had a lot of first hand experience with the medical system both as a non insured person and one that at one time had great insurance.

I'll have to address it at another time though for two reasons. One, I think with all the energy you put into your posts you deserve more than a flippant or fly by night response. And two, my Lupus is acting up, my hands are swollen beyond belief and my neighbors (my 'doctors' when I'm not insured) have pumped me up with obscene amounts of Vicadin and Oxycodone.

I doubt I'd make much sense. And i don't want to show up tomorrow and read a post I've written and go 'OMFG, tell me I didn't say that ...'