"Non believer that plants teach"

[AloneNotLonely0]

Ok I know for the most part this goes "against" the general ideas of the forum.

And this thread is somewhat similar to my old one called

"Entheogens for fun or spirituality??? "

I am an athiest and pretty much a skeptic in many other things as well such as aliens. Although I think they could exist.

Anyways back to the plants. I enjoy them and like you all want to protect them.

But again my mind hasn't changed and I try to be really open minded.

But I still am not "deeply enlightened" when using them.

In fact when using them I feel the exact opposite. It is an escape from reality into a make believe fantasy world.

It's all just fun and games and really quite interesting, but it is NOT reality. Reality is me typing this post not some BS seen while hanging out with Lady Salvia.

I'm not trying to say people who do think what they see is "the truth" are dumb. But I could not disagree more.

Any thoughts ideads?????????

[Azagaroth]

An interesting post. Let me give you an example of how "real" our reality is. Hopefully this will get you thinking!

When you look around you in the world, what are you seeing?
(a) 3D physical objects
(b) Highly complex energy-patterns
(c) Whatever your brain has told you to see

The thing is, reality is a combination of all three of the above. When we look at an object, what we are actually seeing is light-energy reflecting from the surface of the object. The light-energy is captured by our eyes, but it is the brain (occipital lobe) which actually renders the energy pattern into the phenomina called "three-dimensions". Scientists have said that upto 50% of the photonic energy entering our eyes is filtered out by the brain, and not rendered. This is the basis for certain optical illusions.

A lot of the time what we are seeing as reality is a combination of the actual energy which is "out-there", along with what our brain "thinks" is out-there. When the information is not available, the brain "fills-in" the blanks. So does reality come from outside of us, or from highly complex mathematical equations which the brain is performing for us? (such as fast fourier transforms, or FFT's).

The reality of reality is far more bizarre than most people ever find out. On one level everything is 3D physical, but then we stumble into a problem.

The problem is this; Conventional science tells us that the building blocks for the physical world is the atom. However, when you look at an atom, using electon-microscope, you will see that the physical part of the atom, the protons and neutons, are only a fraction of the size of the boundaries of the atom (1/100,000th ~ 0.001%).

A simple example of this; Imagine a football. This is the atom. The nucleus inside this football would be the size of a grain of sand. The rest of the space (99.999%) is an empty void. Isn't it interesting that physical objects are made from something which has practically no physical mass?

Now we get to the cool part of this. So if atoms are not really capable of producing "solid" dense object, than how does reality work? Well, we are made from the same atoms, so we are interacting on the same energy level as every other 'solid' objects. This is how we are fooled into seeing the world as 3-dimension. When in fact reality, is a holographic construct.

So where do entheogen's fit into this? Particulary hallucinogenic compounds like psilocybin? They work by effecting the sense procesing sections of the brain, such as the occipital lobe. Some hallucinations may be real, in terms of an actual energy presence "out-there", while others may be totally manufactured and localized to the brain. Either way, certain compounds allow us to expand our total perception of reality. Is it real? What is reality?

The energy in the universe? Or the individual's relationship towards it?

The reality in the world, and the reality in our heads are totally interchangable. "I think therefore I am". I believe that statement holds more truth 'behind-the-scenes' than most people realize.

This idea doesn't de-value life. In fact, I would argue that people who believe in the "energy based universe" are much closer to the truth (obviously, no-one knows everything). What is God other than the total sum of all energy, including our own?

Anyway, I hope this gives you something to think about next time you take an entheogen. Thinking about this next time you take some mushrooms, for example, will keep you going for hours!

If you want more reading about some of these ideas, read Micheal Talbots "The Holographic Universe". You can pick it up real cheap online, and it's a fantastic book!

references
"Powers Of Ten". A visual example of the scale of the universe, including the atom.
The Scale Of The Universe
Holographic Principles

[AloneNotLonely0]

Hmmm I understand what your saying, for the most part.(some of it is confusing)

Here's what I think your trying to tell me:

The way we see things is just how our brain interprets stuff, some of it real some of it fake, and when using entheogens, one can see things diffrently and maybe more accurately.

I want to accept your theory, but I can not fully. I am really about facts. Even though I know not everything can be explained.

I do belive in the 3D universe and that matter and energy exist nothing else. And even though we don't fully understand atoms and all that science may one day unlock all thier secrets.

When using an entheogen and lets say you see an ancient woman explaining how small robots control humans and now only that you have used this plant can you be free and fully understand life.

This was not an actual experience I just made it up to explain my views.

Many people talk of such experiences and belive them. I can not to me it is crazy and loads of fun, but nothing more it can not be real. It is completely ridiculous to me.

I have a question for those who do belive their experiences like this.

How can you go on living in reality if you really belive some of your outlandish experiences and learnings as fact?

[AloneNotLonely0]

My postings are not meant to attack anyone. Just trying to get ideas flowing and feedback.

The thing is most skeptics are sooo proud of their non beliefs, and want to force them on others.

I however, wish I could see past my obsessions of facts and beliefs in math.

I wish I could accept the "fantasy world" as real and true. But I cant.

[jupe]

Great discussion..superb post by Azagaroth....

my two cents.

Our senses and minds are filters and buffers, helping us to interpret massive amount of data, which would overwhelm us otherwise.

Plants, chemicals, meditation, stress...whatever!!! can change these parameters around, and let you see that your normal way of viewing things, is not the only way. It just is the way we have evolved, and it usually works well for this planet.....

[Burning_Copal]

I agree with jupe, what the plant " teachers " allow us to do is understand how our brain symbolizes, and encodes information / re accesses it, and how our habitual patterns, and ways of thinking influence this, with psychedelics, and many other types of psychoactives, these get jostled while at the sametime, often leaving some part of rationalel intact, so that we can look at the break down of these habitual interpretations, and look behond them. Its not that the ' visions' are any more, or any less real then what we see with our typical sober eyes, or hear with our sober ears, or feel with our sober nerve endings, I am using the term ' visions ' here as a general term for altered perceptions that such sacraments induce.

I've heard interesting experiences described by people under the influence of psychedelics, In that they think the TV is talking to them, or what ever the case may be. I'm not in a position to judge if what they are percieving is or is not reality, however, considering our thoughts , to the best of sciences knowledge now, the function of a electro-chemical biological computer, the thoughts and experiences , are simply a dis organization ( or re organization ) of these , if its done in a purely recreational context, often these can get jumbled further and become bothersome, thats why I believe many people consider such plants as diviners sage, the snakevines, sacred cacti, and fungi like psilocybe mushrooms etc as sacraments, because in accepting them as such, we're essentialy seting up our set and setting, this is the purpose of the rituals , and yes , in rituals people attach symbolisim to the plants that probobly in most cases, is a unique , or somewhat unique concept between the individual and the plant. Its not that symbolic thinking is 'wrong' I would venture to say, our brain basicly runs on it, as jupe said, when these get jostled chemicaly, while not incompacitating the individual , it makes it possible to for one, view the typical symbolic mindset objectivly ( something that often is difficult to do otherwise, we take our typical symbolic thought patterns as literal ' reality ' which is the day to day notion of it. ) And at the same time, if there was a posative intent, or some specific reason for consuming the sacrament, that establishment of set, within a ritual setting , often allows what would , by a typical definition, be considered a ' disorganized mindstate' to simply become a opportunity to re organize, if one does not establish the intent , there is really little direction, and the brain often will just run its old patterns, which is why people more often describe in recreational psychadelic experiences, seeing visions of TV shows, or characters in them, various things from day to day life simply becoming abberations, otherwise ' strange ' phenomena that some think ' interesting' others' terrifying' Unless there is some notion of sacred and sacrament when consuming something that can really alter the way the brain works, its very possible for the brain to create more of a mess for itself, which I see as counter productive , atleast personaly . As far as my views on the plants, and the ' spirit teachers' I know the plants are alive, or that if one is working with prepared plant material, that they came from something that was alive, or in the case of entheogenic seeds, these are in almost all cases, still technicaly alive, their metabolisim is just so slow when dried, untill favorable germination conditions occur. This is true of everything really , that aside from salt , and a few other mineral and inorganic things we eat , almost everything that goes into our body, that we either derive nutrients from ( which psychoactives may be considered a psychological nutrient, but from a objective standpoint, most of the substances are technicaly toxic, but then so is water in the wrong dosage, its a matter of dosage ) All of these are organic, so all of it was life at one point. Thats something to respect IMHO ( perhaps not everyone agrees ) weither we are talking about a snakevine seed, a slice of bread, a glass of milk, a smoked piece of fish, psychedelic mushrooms or what ever one wishes to use as an example, by consuming almost anything for either nutrition or psychoactive purposes, we are accepting life into our body, in the case of things simply eaten, in leaf form atleast, these are often still alive when they reach the stomach, in that there is still living tissue, that is if they are freshly harvested.

So from that standpoint, the 'teacher' concept has alot to do with the sanctity of life in general, I've heard many people describe similar notions that often either occured originaly during such psychedelic experiences, or were notions derived directly or indirectly from such experiences.

The visions themselves though, are constructions of the mind, or atleast filters of them as jupe explained, a visual understanding of what our brain may do, could be likened to a pane of glass, with various sheets of tinted film of varying shades and thicknesses held infront of it, you put a candle behind the glass, you see the candle ( you look around the glass, you see it directly, but through the glass you still get a good general idea of what a candle looks like ) but by either tilting the glass , or changing what the light is filtered through further, we can understand it differently, see it differently. As much negative press as has been made about how psychedelic experiences are simply the expressions of a ' chemicaly confused mind ' or disorganized mental patterns, this should not be taken to be a bad thing, because if such experiences are gone into with a condusive set and setting ( often ritual, some I'm sure are athiests and have very productive experiences ) the dis organization is simply another opportunity, I've heard people take literaly their visions, and I am in no position to say they were right and wrong in doing that, its in their mind, and their notions of the meaning of thoes visions was also. However from my own experience atleast, the visions or experiences if you will, give a indirect ( not too indirect ) perspective , often outside our own mental conditioning, or bringing up the notions so they can be understood as habitual / pattern / symbolic thinking, its the understanding of ourselves we experience during these experiences, that teaches us, and from understanding ourselves, we can get a better understanding of the world, if we have to prove of validate everything in our world to believe it, it takes alot of time and energy out of life to otherwise experience this gift, which I truely believe being alive is.

I have nothing against athiests, and can very well understand why one may hold such objective views as you mentioned, It just may be, that if one is constantly looking for proof of the validity of either their own, or someone elses experiences in life ( in geneal, not just entheogenic experiences ) They may find very little truth in the world, because much of it is really subjective, we like to think of what we see with our day to day sober eyes, and other sense perceptions, as 'the reality' sure its reality, but its still being filtered by our mind, which as Azagaroth mentioned, simply is interpreting stimuli, in the case of eyes, reflected light energy, in the case of ears, vibrations , touch is simply nerves responding to stimuli, Its not that these sensations are real, or imaginary, but they are subjective. Example of this, amputees, say one who lost their arm for example, they often experience phantom pains , and also have experiences , while sober mind you, of actually moving a limb, they know they no longer have. So the brain is telling them its there based on touch ( nerves ) even if the eyes, and other senses may be saying its not. If a limb is amputated , obviousluy weither a person percieves sensations from where it was or not, its still amputated, but the sensations of it being there, are infact reality also, in that, they are chemical / electrical signals going on in our brain, which is to say, its actually happening, and its not fantasy.

This is why the term hallucination is a term I'm relying on less, it implies something that does not exist, but our thoughts truely do, so everything that goes on in our brain , is infact real, even visions under the influence of entheogens, its when we attach meaning to these , and asume that meaning is the truth, that change occurs, either posative change, as in healing, a better understanding of ones self etc, or more confusions, our notions and symbolic thinking are what governs our notion of reality IMHO, I'm just basing this on my own experience of course, and of others I've talked with. Its not that there is anything wrong with the notions, and without them a human life would probobly be quite different, its just that unless one understands them and why they are occuring, they can sometimes be problematic, just the same, other symbolic thought patterns can be benifical , in helping to either over ride, or change the interpretation of others, this is why rituals prior , during, and often after entheogen experiences play such a important role, its priming the mind to work with the disorganization in a posative way. Its often easier to change old habitual thought patterns, and direct new patterns with a posative nature, in such disorganization , because so often in our sober day to day life, we assume that what we see is THE reality, as I've said, it surely is reality, as close to any that people will ever experience, but it is not the only expression of it, when you close the doors to other possiblities, you often lock yourself somewhere.

[Lemmiwinks]

Smoking dmt a few times can turn any atheist into a spiritual person....it will make one a believer...

[scyhop:per]

Originally Posted by AloneNotLonely0

I however, wish I could see past my obsessions of facts and beliefs in math.

I think questioning is the epitome of being a spiritual being having a human experience, so kudos to you.

Like you, there was a time when I thought math could provide whatever answers were being sought. Then M-theory changed that quite a bit.

If I'm understanding correctly, scientists/number crunch-a-holics are trying to work backwards from the 11th dimension in order to prove that there's a 10th.
This would support the claim that the big-bang created 4 dimensions, 3 of which we can readily observe with the naked eye, the 4th being time or gravity, I dunno, and the other six 'folded up', whatever the hell that means . Essentially though, the big bang is being said to have created 10 dimensions.

So in our infancy, how many dimensions exist besides the ones we boast of 'discovering'? It seems very clear to me that there's a tool in our brain that helps us tune in to those other dimensions that our anscestors became aware of countless aeons ago via plants and/or trancing; that being the pineal gland. We also know that sight, memory, cognition, etc., is a complex array of neural activity in different hemispheric regions functioning collaboratively that helps produce reality as we know it. However, just like scientists think differently than artists or musicians, we all have our seperate truths or ways of experiencing reality, some shared, others vastly different.

If entheogens can serve as the dial on a radio per se, and we can tune in to what would normally be invisible realities, then it's no longer just about life/aliens existing in this universe, but a veritable cosmic ethnic pot of the multi-verse. Not everybody will see the same things with psilocybe or DMT because our genetics/wiring, despite sharing myriad commonalities, may react differently to plants, or combinations thereof.

So I guess without getting to complicated (like I could if I wanted to ), our best scientists are grappling with what they believe are 10 dimensions that make up this universe; on top of that, if they believe they can work backwards from an eleventh dimension, then just how many dimensions are there in the totality of the multi-verse anway? Not only are there ancient cultures that understood particle physics that our brightest minds are starting to figure out, there are people on this planet that are aware of blending science with spirituality, and can recite the names of plants and their healing/teaching potential, that haven't even been discovered in the mainstream sense, but have been handing down that knowledge for hundreds, thousands, perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands of years.

Whatever you, I, or anyone thinks they know, the surface of knowledge hasn't even achieved a scuff. There's so much more than can be stored in such a puny brain, that's why entheogens allow oobe's to experience the totality without experiencing a devastating short-circuit trying to cram that knowledge into a finite space on a constant basis.

That's how I percieve things anyway.

[AloneNotLonely0]

Originally Posted by Lemmiwinks

Smoking dmt a few times can turn any atheist into a spiritual person....it will make one a believer...

I disagree.

I appreciate everyones responses. I always want to hear what you guys think.

But I guess for now I am stuck in my skeptic ways. I'm sure I havent changed any of you all's views either.

I hear what your saying about perceiving things differently, looking at stuff from different angles. And that thoughts are real but they are only real as thoughts.

I mean I can think I'm rich and have sex with movie stars all I want but it's not true.

Reality is a huge concept, and I guess we could go back and forth telling our sides of the story forever.

[Burning_Copal]

Originally Posted by AloneNotLonely0

Reality is a huge concept, and I guess we could go back and forth telling our sides of the story forever.

Your correct, this is a possiblity , which is why ' agree to disagree' ends so many circular conversations I've noticed. There are some things, religion and politics primarily, that tend to enter into such circular arguments.